***** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jul 14 06:09:52 2020 Jul 14 06:09:52 * Now talking on #solidaritynotcharity Jul 14 11:39:57 * sprprtr has changed the topic to: Welcome to "Mutual Aid in the time of Uncertainty" hosted as part of Common Bond Society by Larisa Blazic and commissioned by UP Projects. Tonight's agenda: 1.Now: Mutual aid in the age of uncertainty 2.Next: Mutual aid beyond moments of crisis Jul 14 18:31:21 Ruth Hello everybody Jul 14 18:31:27 ccl Hello :) Jul 14 18:31:33 Chelsea hello Jul 14 18:31:41 Cecilia Oh hi there! Jul 14 18:31:44 lararara Hello all Jul 14 18:31:47 Anastasia hello all! Jul 14 18:31:48 Ruth Lovely to see so many people here! Jul 14 18:31:53 * jesfernie (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined Jul 14 18:31:56 * Truce_ (email@example.com) has joined Jul 14 18:32:02 * rosie (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined Jul 14 18:32:06 * ep (email@example.com) has joined Jul 14 18:32:17 * debhack28 (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined Jul 14 18:32:35 * UP_Projects_ has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 18:32:38 * acpstudio (email@example.com) has joined Jul 14 18:32:44 Ruth We will be getting started soon Jul 14 18:32:52 * cristina (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined Jul 14 18:33:05 Ruth Just waiting for a critical mass of people before we start Jul 14 18:33:07 * Lauren (email@example.com) has joined Jul 14 18:33:12 * nela (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined Jul 14 18:33:15 Chelsea 3 Jul 14 18:33:45 irini Hello all:) Jul 14 18:33:54 lararara Hi irini! Hi all! Jul 14 18:33:56 Ruth Hi Irini:) Jul 14 18:34:16 Cecilia Hi Irini! Jul 14 18:34:17 irini Hi Ruth! Lara! Jul 14 18:34:25 irini Hi Cecilia! Jul 14 18:34:35 debhack28 3 Jul 14 18:35:13 * iannes (email@example.com) has joined Jul 14 18:35:28 * ccl has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 18:35:46 * Alex_ has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 18:35:58 * techboy94 (firstname.lastname@example.org) has left Jul 14 18:36:13 * Camille (email@example.com) has joined Jul 14 18:36:28 Ruth Hello Camille! Jul 14 18:36:38 Ruth I think we are all here now Jul 14 18:36:42 lararara Hi Camille Jul 14 18:36:48 Camille hi i am sorry Jul 14 18:36:54 lararara Hi Cecilia Jul 14 18:36:55 Camille my internet just went awol Jul 14 18:36:59 Camille but here now Jul 14 18:37:02 lararara Hi Anastasia Jul 14 18:37:04 Ruth Shall we get started? Jul 14 18:37:06 lararara Hi Ruth :-) Jul 14 18:37:07 * tech94 (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined Jul 14 18:37:10 lararara yup Jul 14 18:37:11 Chelsea yes Jul 14 18:37:18 Camille yes Jul 14 18:37:22 Ruth Hello, my name is Ruth Catlow and I am your chair and host this evening! I am a curator, art-theorist and Co-Founder and Co-Artistic Director of Furtherfield. Thank you all for joining today. Jul 14 18:37:37 Ruth I would like to welcome you all to this event "Mutual Aid in the time of Uncertainty" hosted as part of Common Bond Society by Larisa Blazic. This digital artwork has been commissioned by UP Projects in response to the Covid-19 pandemic as part of their ongoing This is Public Space digital commissioning strand. Jul 14 18:37:46 Chelsea thanks for having us Jul 14 18:37:53 Ruth This is Public Space considers the online realm as a site for public art and creates space to investigate how we navigate between the online and physical worlds, exploring the impact of digital media on our relationships with people and places. Jul 14 18:38:10 Ruth Today's event is divided into two parts Now and Next and looks to examine the role mutual aid has played in the context of the current pandemic as well as find time to consider how we can harness mutual aid tactics to aid a more progressive and cooperative future. Jul 14 18:38:32 Ruth Are there ways of sustaining, supporting and encouraging acts of mutual aid long term? Tonight, I hope we can go some way in considering these questions and I am delighted to be joined by some great minds to do so. Here is the line up! Jul 14 18:38:43 * M___ (email@example.com) has joined Jul 14 18:38:51 Ruth Larisa Blazic artist and creator of Common Bond Society and the reason we are here tonight. Jul 14 18:39:01 Ruth Camille Barbagallo, Plan C Founder and organiser with the Women's Strike Assembly Jul 14 18:39:10 Ruth Anastasia Kavada, Reader in Media and Politics at the University of Westminster Jul 14 18:39:19 Ruth Cecilia Wee, Curator, Researcher and RCA Visiting Lecturer Jul 14 18:39:30 Ruth This format may be new to many of you, but IRC chats are an old school phenomenon that invite informal conversation, discussion and debate. Jul 14 18:39:42 * m---b (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined Jul 14 18:39:45 Ruth We encourage you to get involved, participate and share your opinions, viewpoints and questions at any point you wish. Jul 14 18:39:57 Ruth We will start this evening with a short contextual introduction by Larisa Blazic in order to situate this conversation within her work and the origins of mutual aid before beginning our dialogue. Jul 14 18:39:59 * saramairi (email@example.com) has joined Jul 14 18:40:10 Ruth Over to you Larisa… Jul 14 18:40:26 lararara Hi all! Jul 14 18:40:27 ahadzi evening Jul 14 18:40:33 M___ hi Jul 14 18:40:33 Ruth hey adnan! Jul 14 18:40:35 Anastasia hi Larisa! Jul 14 18:40:39 m---b hello! Jul 14 18:40:43 cristina hello :) Jul 14 18:40:53 Ruth Hello all Jul 14 18:41:04 Lauren Hello Lara, Ruth and amazing panel! Jul 14 18:41:04 rosie hi ro Ruth from Rose L Jul 14 18:41:13 * ep has quit ("Page closed") Jul 14 18:41:35 sprprtr from another computer Jul 14 18:41:37 * m---b_ (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined Jul 14 18:41:37 Ruth I think Lara's internet is down : ( Jul 14 18:41:38 * m---b has quit ("Page closed") Jul 14 18:41:39 sprprtr cnotinued Jul 14 18:41:51 sprprtr At the time I wondered how many people knew about the history of such organising and whether they were aware of its political background. Soon enough there were groups such as Sisters Uncut and others who flagged up the need to understand mutual aid as "solidarity not charity"…something I am keen to highlight and unpick in our conversation tonight. Jul 14 18:42:15 sprprtr I was also wondering how this wave of amazing human action for the benefit of others can and should be supported through institutions of mutual aid. What are these institutions? How can we set them up? What knowledge and experience exists in the field? And is there a way to sustain, support, encourage (and dare I say reward!?) this kind of behaviour long term? Jul 14 18:42:34 * niccolo (email@example.com) has joined Jul 14 18:42:51 sprprtr The father of mutual aid, Peter Kropotkin helps us analyse how forms of mutual aid occur in nature as well as in human society over the ages. His essay Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution (1902) offers compelling evidence for careful scrutiny of present-day organising (facilitated by digital technologies) and allows room for imagining pathways for long-term encouragement and change. Jul 14 18:42:53 * Sila_ has quit ("Page closed") Jul 14 18:42:54 * m---b_ is now known as m---b Jul 14 18:43:07 sprprtr Charity, he says, "bears a character of inspiration from above, and, accordingly, implies a certain superiority of the giver upon the receiver." With this he opens up an analysis of the power dynamic in charitable exchanges. Jul 14 18:43:32 sprprtr Whilst on the other hand, he proposes that "…it is not love and not even sympathy upon which Society is based in mankind. It is the conscience—be it only at the stage of an instinct—of human solidarity. It is the unconscious recognition of the force that is borrowed by each man from the practice of mutual aid; of the close dependency of every one's happiness upon the happiness of all; and of the sense of j Jul 14 18:43:32 sprprtr ustice, or equity, which brings the individual to consider the rights of every other individual as equal to his [her/their] own." Jul 14 18:44:10 sprprtr Mutual aid, I believe, is perhaps the best way to externalise our commitment to a life of dignity and confront the "theatre of cruelty" that is contemporary life. Common Bond Society is a commission that is set up to contribute to this conversation. Jul 14 18:44:12 * Luke73 (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined Jul 14 18:44:26 sprprtr Taking the form of 'old school' IRC chat rooms, i.e. channels, it reuses communication tools of the Internet before web 2.0 to reboot citizens' information agora. More broadly however, the work aims to prompt discussion about the platforms that have been in use to organisation mutual aid, through which issues of privacy, safety and power can find a space for reflection. Jul 14 18:44:28 * lararara has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 18:44:49 Ruth I think that this work sprung first from your observation of new mutual aid practices with the pandemic right? Jul 14 18:45:22 sprprtr oops! Jul 14 18:45:26 * tech94 has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 18:45:31 Truce_ Nah, the pandemic on highlighted it Jul 14 18:45:46 sprprtr all browsers quit! Jul 14 18:45:50 sprprtr here we go Jul 14 18:45:52 sprprtr The delayed beginning of the COVID-19 lock-down in the UK brought about an amazing wave of community organising, a sort of self-assembly for the protection of self and others, a beautiful act of solidarity where neighbours reached out to each other for help and support. Mutual aid groups grew like mushrooms, posters were plastered, chat groups and websites were made, phones distributed, transportation found, fundraisers Jul 14 18:45:52 sprprtr organised, food prepared, medicines picked up and delivered. Jul 14 18:46:04 cristina (it's a browser strike) Jul 14 18:46:05 niccolo It has occured to me during these times to reflect about how helping has always been associated with a condition of inferiority, subordination, non-centrality - a very dominant, masculine and white vision which is being challenged constantly (and finally!) Jul 14 18:46:08 Ruth Ok so this was the start Jul 14 18:47:23 Ruth I think niccolo that you raise an issue that gets to the heart of the matter for all our panellists Jul 14 18:47:39 * lararara (email@example.com) has joined Jul 14 18:47:50 * acp_studio (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined Jul 14 18:48:01 Ruth Please Camille, Cecillia, and Anastasia feel free to respond Jul 14 18:48:10 Anastasia I think that you are right Niccolo Jul 14 18:48:11 * breakwater (email@example.com) has joined Jul 14 18:48:34 Anastasia mutual aid is associated with care - caring for each other in a horizontal way and without hierarchies Jul 14 18:48:37 Camille i wonder if the desire to help is "masc" though - in that i think helping has been coded as feminine / angel of the house / victorian era Jul 14 18:49:07 Anastasia but care has always been associated with women, and care work has nearly always been undertaken by the working class Jul 14 18:49:10 Cecilia Yes indeed Camille! Help = masc, Care = fem? Jul 14 18:49:22 Anastasia so I think that it is valued much less in our culture Jul 14 18:49:54 niccolo Yes Anastasia, totally. Jul 14 18:49:58 Cecilia This notion of help is also wrapped up in a paternalistic attitude towards 'the poor', the needy Jul 14 18:50:27 Camille yes i agree that care has definitely been devalued and degraded. but i think the helping ethic is also feminisied - just a different class (middle class) that help / do charity TO the working class Jul 14 18:50:36 * nela has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 18:50:38 Lauren my experience is thet it is nonetheless not at all straightforward to really make mutual aid 'mutual', how to get around the idea of some needing help and some offering it creating 'charitable' dynamics? Jul 14 18:50:47 * acpstudio has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 18:50:57 Lauren (or could replace help with care) Jul 14 18:51:13 Cecilia For me, potentially the (re)emergence of mutual aid is indicative of a new wave of energy of changing this idea of institutional, or institutionalised help Jul 14 18:51:35 Cecilia disrupting the problematic dynamics of 'help from above' Jul 14 18:51:43 Anastasia that's a great question Lauren, such projects often start with the best intentions but these hierarchical dynamics persist Jul 14 18:51:54 Lauren it feels very connected to class privelege Jul 14 18:52:04 Camille lauren - definitely agree that it is not always obvious what separates charity from mutual aid -- i think there is something in there about access and pariticipation and POWER! Jul 14 18:52:28 Cecilia @Camille Definitely agree about power! Jul 14 18:52:58 Lauren the trouble / key is: how do people who have never had power come to believe they have it? Jul 14 18:52:58 Camille so there is something about can people take control of the help that is being delivered Jul 14 18:53:04 Chelsea I disagree Help should be unconditionally Jul 14 18:53:10 elisabeth in mutual aid everyone has a stake Jul 14 18:53:13 Anastasia this is something that we've been reflecting on in our Covid-19 mutual aid group in the Shacklewell ward - while it is based on the principles of mutual aid and in a diverse borough, the organising team is not as diverse Jul 14 18:53:37 Lauren @Anastasia - exactly Jul 14 18:53:47 Cecilia @Anastasia, absolutely agree, there might be some participants who have more capacity Jul 14 18:53:50 Ruth @anastasia why do you think this is? Jul 14 18:53:50 niccolo i think charity is giving to those in need, generosity is giving to others what you might not even have enough for yourself. and mutual aid is when this becomes a constant flow where all benefit from contributing or from contributions. Jul 14 18:54:11 * Suol (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined Jul 14 18:54:34 Lauren @niccolo - agreed! but it's not obvious for everyone to feel they have something to give Jul 14 18:54:45 niccolo totally Lauren Jul 14 18:54:46 Camille i think the other element @niccolo is that mutual aid is about trying to address the structural issues that cause us to need solidarity in the first place Jul 14 18:54:46 Lauren when society has long given them the message that they do not Jul 14 18:55:11 * elisabeth (email@example.com) has left Jul 14 18:55:12 Anastasia @Ruth - I think that it has to do with various things: time and availability during the pandemic, confidence in undertaking organising roles (that relates to class, race, and gender and previous experience) Jul 14 18:55:15 niccolo yes Camille, grasping a sense of the framework gives purpose to actions which otherwise might risk feeling menial Jul 14 18:55:35 * elisabeth_ (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined Jul 14 18:55:40 Chelsea I think the term mutual is misleading because people might expect something in return Jul 14 18:55:44 niccolo here in Chicago, since the beginning of COVID, I have seen and been part almost spontaneously of chats and group texts on Signal passing on information about where help is needed and who needs it....some sort of intelligent network of people sharing info, checking it, and then with BLM, listening to police scaners, posting needs for supplies, etc. Very simple, few pictures, short texts. To focus on real needs we need a space devoid of dis Jul 14 18:55:45 Cecilia @ Ruth @Anastasia - This is also the case when we look at mutual credit systems, and their circulation, Jul 14 18:55:59 Chelsea whereas aid should be always without expectations Jul 14 18:56:12 niccolo yes Chelsea very true Jul 14 18:56:40 Camille it also means that our organising of mutual aid isn't just about maintain the status quo / but about building the power to change it -- that is a key difference for me Jul 14 18:56:45 Ruth @cecilia please say more about mutual credit systems Jul 14 18:56:48 Cecilia thanks for joining us from Chicago @niccolo - amazing culture and history of organising there! Jul 14 18:56:52 Anastasia but also it has to do with the difficulty in bridging divides, even within the same borough - people may be dubious about mutual aid when they don't know how it works or who runs it and prefer to rely on neighbours that they already know or family Jul 14 18:57:22 Lauren yes, @Anastasia - those issues of trust / suspicion are huge Jul 14 18:57:22 Camille i think that is because of how deep the violence of charity runs in the UK Jul 14 18:57:23 niccolo yes Cecilia, learning every minute - also not having ANY expectations of aid from public systems kinda makes it inevitable :) Jul 14 18:57:25 Ruth Yes @camille. Jul 14 18:58:02 Cecilia @Anastasia @ Ruth the issue that often occurred in mutual credit systems is that many people wanted to participate and give their time/resources but actually found it hard to receive! indicative also of the privileges in understanding and accessing such systems Jul 14 18:58:19 cristina in former Soviet countries, aid is associated with clear power hierarchies. for me, the word "mutual" dispels these associations Jul 14 18:58:28 Chelsea @Cecilia great point Jul 14 18:58:29 cristina (receiving aid from the West) Jul 14 18:58:35 Anastasia @Niccolo I think that you raise an important issue regarding state help...in the Jul 14 18:59:02 Truce_ Why is relying on neighbours and family/friends not considered as mutual aid? Jul 14 18:59:46 Camille i think the points about how uncomfortable "receiving help" is / how bound up with power such exchanges are / really is at the heart of what separates charity from mutual aid Jul 14 18:59:47 * Harry_ (email@example.com) has joined Jul 14 18:59:55 Cecilia @Cristina. yep! anyone know the activists No White Saviors? https://www.instagram.com/nowhitesaviors Jul 14 19:00:10 Lauren @truce - is it something about a specific form of s olidarity developed under specific circumstances? Which then builds capacities that didn't exist otherwise? Jul 14 19:00:15 niccolo Mutual is related to words as "mutation" too, from Latin "mutare" which means to change. It took on a meaning of "exchange" only when it began being the descriptive word the banking system used to describe physical exchange of goods rather than currency. but the word can still mean that something is done expecting that something "changes" in return. Jul 14 19:00:19 Lauren @Cecilia - they are BAD ASS Jul 14 19:00:19 * Luke73 has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 19:00:32 Cecilia :-) Jul 14 19:00:41 Anastasia to continue the point about state aid, you see the differences between the US and the UK, with the popularity here of the NHS first responders scheme (that mirrors the trust towards the NHS) Jul 14 19:00:45 niccolo no who are the No White Saviors? Jul 14 19:00:46 Harry_ Do you think true mutual aid only happens when we are in survival mode? Jul 14 19:00:49 cristina @Cecilia, didn't know them before, thanks! Jul 14 19:01:08 Camille @truce i think it can be mutual aid - but there need to be more to relations than helping each other out Jul 14 19:01:24 Anastasia @Truce - it is mutual aid, but it meant that people didn't trust the mutual aid groups in the area if they didn't know anyone who was involved in the group Jul 14 19:01:31 niccolo @Harry - i think it only begins massively when we are in survival mode, but it doesn't need survival mode to keep existing Jul 14 19:01:40 Cecilia No White Saviors doing some AMAZING work addressing this question of 'white saviorism', unpacking intentions behind 'international development' and 'aid' Jul 14 19:02:16 niccolo @Cecilia oh boy, can I say something about the "white saviors" wrecking BLM protests here?... Jul 14 19:02:17 Camille yeah i agree i think crisis / disasters / emergencies are overwhelmingly the driver behind mutual aid efforts Jul 14 19:02:30 niccolo @cecilia you touch such a true point here Jul 14 19:02:30 Cecilia @niccolo LOL Jul 14 19:03:10 Anastasia I agree that crises are catalysts - the book 'Paradise Built in Hell' by Rebecca Solnit is a key resource here Jul 14 19:03:11 Cecilia @camille yes but also there is a submerged history of different mutual aid groups, thinking about how migrants support one another Jul 14 19:03:35 Cecilia @Anastasia yes ! good shout on that!! Jul 14 19:03:45 Ruth @cecilia do you think white saviourism is prevalent in current Mutual Aid work Jul 14 19:04:12 Camille totally - but i think the crisis of the border / crisis of racism / being pushed to the margins of the labour market produce the conditions for why so many migrant communities develop mutual aid networks Jul 14 19:04:24 Cecilia agree Jul 14 19:04:36 * Suol has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 19:04:45 Cecilia here's one i prepared earlier :-) mutual aid organisations (usually supporting people from specific countries or ethnicities) have historically assisted new arrivals to find work and get settled, including fighting racial inequality - my parents would have drawn on the expertise of clan associations when they arrived from China to Singapore, and again, they tapped into a network of fellow Singaporeans when they came to the UK. Jul 14 19:04:58 Ruth ;) Jul 14 19:04:59 Harry_ Do you think that mutual aid is inherently a selfish act if its origins come from the idea of survival Jul 14 19:05:36 niccolo @harry it can't be selfish because you can't mutually aid yourself, you need at least another person, right? Jul 14 19:05:41 * Bergit has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 19:05:42 Chelsea Aid in itself is mostly selfish Jul 14 19:05:58 Harry_ That's right!! But the reasoning behind the aid giving I mean Jul 14 19:06:16 Anastasia @Harry no I don't think so - that is if it is related to the survival of the collective or the group - and what crises and catastrophes show you is the interdependency, how you need a group of people in order to survive Jul 14 19:06:20 sprprtr Harry_ it depends on the underlying intention Jul 14 19:06:24 niccolo @harry it depends if you are helping others the way they want to be helped or the way you want to help them Jul 14 19:06:28 Cecilia not necessarily, makes me think about Fred Moten/Stefano Harney Undercommons, and how they describe debt... bonds that bond us together... how debt makes the community in some messed up way as well Jul 14 19:07:17 Anastasia @Cecilia - yes, it is a first step at creating bonds, once that mesh is in place one can think about the types of bonds and power dynamics Jul 14 19:07:18 Camille @harry what makes you think it is selfish? Jul 14 19:07:42 * Bergit_ (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined Jul 14 19:07:56 Harry_ That we all ultimately have the same goal to survive @camille Jul 14 19:08:05 Harry_ And that goal is selfish Jul 14 19:08:08 Lauren I wonder whether we have to attach a negative value to the preservation of self (selfishness) if that is done with others not at their expense? Jul 14 19:08:31 Harry_ Thats a good point Lauren... Jul 14 19:08:35 Cecilia agree^^ Jul 14 19:08:39 Anastasia agree Jul 14 19:09:03 * M___ has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 19:09:08 Camille yeah i agree with @lauren i think it is important to be able to claim the desire to live / to survive and for others to as well Jul 14 19:09:32 Lauren This is where the class dynamics are complicated in current mutual aid tho - not everyone is really "in the same boat" in relation to survival Jul 14 19:09:38 Camille selfishness is doing that at others expense / getting ahead while others starve etc Jul 14 19:09:42 * Tech94 (email@example.com) has joined Jul 14 19:09:55 Camille i wanted to come back to bons Jul 14 19:09:59 Camille *bonds Jul 14 19:10:01 niccolo @harry for sure aid, since it addresses a need/scarcity, can influence the aided profoundly so there is "power" in aid which needs to be protected from abuse and mystification. but that's true with many things, I think the interesting part here is more how do you manage the flow of distribution of aid and participation so that selfishness is structurally excluded. Jul 14 19:10:09 Ruth yes@camille? Jul 14 19:10:13 Chelsea @Camille that's not true selfishness is also helping because it makes you fee good Jul 14 19:11:01 jesfernie Hello all! I'm interested in something Cecilia said earlier about mutual aid as an attempt to deal with the structural issues that cause us to need solidarity. ie mutual aid as a way to confront / deconstruct capitalism and its use of bodies and exchanges as a form of currency. Jul 14 19:11:19 Ruth Good point @Lauren - made so much more starkly obvious with the pandemic Jul 14 19:11:26 Harry_ I agree with you again Lauren...within the capitalist system we don't come from the same a mutual starting place Jul 14 19:11:30 Chelsea @niccolo not possible to structural exclude selfishness Jul 14 19:11:48 * Luke73 (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined Jul 14 19:12:05 Anastasia @Chelsea - true but we cannot expect people's motivations to be true. I think that we shouldn't only be focusing on the intentions underlying the act but also on the results. What if I help someone because I want to survive myself and it makes me feel good - but through the act of caring I then develop bonds of care and empathy with others and help in the survival of the group? Jul 14 19:12:06 niccolo @chelsea I think technology in a way has already experimented structures that can solve these issues. Jul 14 19:12:35 Camille because i am not sure i think we need bonds to exist before mutual aid is possible. i think certain crises - say like an earthquake / big flood / the mega fires in australia / strip away the existing barriers and social relations that keep us from working together. Jul 14 19:12:52 Anastasia I think that focusing too much on this kind of guilt is another problem of White Saviourism - if you are in survival mode, there is no luxury for that kind of questioning Jul 14 19:13:02 Cecilia agree Jul 14 19:13:03 niccolo exactly Jul 14 19:13:10 Chelsea @nicoolo interesting care to explain which tech structures do that Jul 14 19:13:11 sprprtr +1 Jul 14 19:13:12 Cecilia we can learn a lot from disability justice movement Jul 14 19:13:24 Cecilia i wanted to share a quote from Leah Lakshmi Piepzna-Samarasinha, who wrote Care Work - Dreaming Disability Justice. "I want us to dream mutual aid in our post-apocalyptic revolutionary societies where everyone gets to access many kinds of care" Jul 14 19:13:25 Lauren @Cecilia absolutely Jul 14 19:13:56 Lauren the way disability justice really makes use of the capacities individuals do and don't have is super relevant Jul 14 19:14:00 Chelsea @Cecilia beautiful Jul 14 19:14:15 Anastasia @Cecilia that's a great quote Jul 14 19:14:25 Cecilia YES! building capacities when we don't have the spoons (spoon theory) Jul 14 19:14:57 Cecilia spoon theory = Christine Miserandino Jul 14 19:15:13 Anastasia and it points to another reason reason of why I like to focus on mutual aid - its emphasis is on what happens when we win, Jul 14 19:15:28 Ruth :) Jul 14 19:15:33 Lauren yes - and knowing that there's a sort of general store of spoons that you give and take from freely and as you need - tho Leah does point out that sometimes there are imbalances Jul 14 19:15:39 Cecilia @Anastasia - what do you mean by win? Jul 14 19:16:06 Camille i think one problem we have with the coming period - is that ecological crisis is going to mean winning will come with a lot more issues Jul 14 19:16:08 Anastasia what I mean is that a lot of social movement work focuses on critique, on overthrowing what's already there Jul 14 19:16:30 Anastasia but not on what happens once we have managed to revolt and overthrow, what do we build then? Jul 14 19:16:33 Cecilia @Lauren yes definitely and how we navigate between us when the imbalances become overwhelming Jul 14 19:16:40 Chelsea There is no winning in mutual aid Jul 14 19:16:55 niccolo what I'm seeing here in Chicago is somewhat similar to how SETI ran its distributed memory network years ago. Issues get "broken down" in packets, and you depending on the time and resources you have you get to work on one or multiple "packets", knowing that the chain will work 99% of times. This reduces the thinking and maximises the acting, which works great for survival mode. Jul 14 19:17:09 niccolo much like the Internet Protocol Jul 14 19:17:14 * Uk (email@example.com) has joined Jul 14 19:17:18 sprprtr :-) Jul 14 19:17:34 Camille i think the reference to winning is refers to quote above "post-apocalyptic revolutionary societies" Jul 14 19:17:38 Cecilia @niccolo - true! Jul 14 19:17:46 * Tech94 has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 19:18:10 niccolo so I am sketical that selfishenss cannot be structurally excluded - maybe not entirely but it can totally be minimised or reduced Jul 14 19:18:38 Anastasia @Camille - agreed! @Lauren- also agreed - there is no winning in mutual aid. Jul 14 19:18:48 Cecilia agree ^^ Jul 14 19:19:07 Camille @chelsea i dont think anyone was referring to mutual aid as "winning" etc. it is part of the counter power / forms of infrastructure / ways of organising / ecology of care that means we can win though! Jul 14 19:19:11 Chelsea @niccolo totally agree Jul 14 19:19:51 * Luke73 has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 19:19:59 niccolo @anastasia yes maybe because it's not about winning, it's about being here, existing without fearing for ourselves all the time. this winning/losing mentality is exactly what brings tons of white protesters to do whatever they want with BLM marches because they think "they're not confronting police enough" Jul 14 19:20:14 Lauren @niccolo can you say more about the 'packets'? in what context are things broken down and what kinds of things? Jul 14 19:20:16 Cecilia @camille, maybe mutual aid IS a core part of that building anew? Jul 14 19:20:22 niccolo ok @Lauren Jul 14 19:20:28 niccolo here's an example Jul 14 19:20:51 Camille i think the work of Silvia Federici is also really useful here - when she asked " how do we need to organise to create healthy self-sustaining movements?" and i think mutual aid / she would point to the politics of social reproduction specifically is part of the answer to that question Jul 14 19:21:14 Chelsea @Camille I think that is a very wrong thought. alone the idea that mutual aid is counter power is thought from a point of privilege that is very wrong and not even remotely true for other cultures Jul 14 19:21:15 Cecilia totally!! ^^ Jul 14 19:21:23 PJ But don't you think mutual aid has a lot to do with access and having the privilege and know how to access it ? Doesn't it have to do with education and understanding of these themes? And with that can it be that often having that education means we come from a place of privilege? Jul 14 19:21:33 Cecilia oops.. i will come back to that 'totally'!! Jul 14 19:22:44 Anastasia @Camille @Cecilia - I think it is and this is what I meant by 'what happens when we win' (which I realise it's easy to be misinterpreted) - it's the focus on the structures that we'd like to build rather than placing emphasis on the antagonism with structures that we'd like to overthrow. Of course, we cannot disregard the latter, but building power means that we need to let our imagination roam free beyond the dominant frameworks. When Jul 14 19:22:45 niccolo every day since June in Chicago there is always more than one single protest happening, so that Police cannot possible concentrate all its forces on one group. what happens is, every protest gets broken down in two main areas: frontline and backline. then frontline si broken down into food, supplies, secutiry, cleaning, filming, marching, car support and jail support. each one of these becomes a chat on Signal and you sign in our out of i Jul 14 19:23:01 Chelsea @PJ I totally agree just take the idea of mutual aid to a poverty driven community in Africa Jul 14 19:23:02 Anastasia ... structures we struggle with our imagination is captured by them Jul 14 19:23:16 niccolo notified about say "water needed at Western /Belmont precint for arrested folks who are getting out" "tampons nneded at Homan Square" Jul 14 19:23:24 Camille hmmm. i am not sure i understand what you are disagreeing with? that mutual aid is a form of counter - power? for me counter power is about building alternatives Jul 14 19:23:27 niccolo the same happens with unemployed people Jul 14 19:23:34 niccolo entire neighborhoods Jul 14 19:23:59 niccolo so basically if it's 2 pm and you have a free hour you can always find something to do that will make the relay continue Jul 14 19:24:08 niccolo all safe from authorities Jul 14 19:24:28 Lauren @niccolo WOW! Jul 14 19:24:34 Harry_ I am also unsure if you can say that mutual aid is an act that only happens from a place of privelege Jul 14 19:24:35 Chelsea counter power in its name is a didactical error when brought up along the lines of mutual aid Jul 14 19:25:01 Anastasia @Chelsea what do you mean by that? Jul 14 19:25:07 niccolo @lauren when you add on top networks like Nextdoor or Citizen (which are full of Karens going nuts too but you get to know stuff) you have a full circle Jul 14 19:25:15 Camille sorry - i dont understand what that means? wanna try saying it with less jargon Jul 14 19:26:02 * iannes has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 19:26:09 Lauren @niccolo - is that quite localised or city-wide? Does it interface with other mutual aid network activities? Jul 14 19:26:29 Lauren And are the mutual aid groups networked with each other? Jul 14 19:26:36 niccolo e.g. ICE is starting a "citizen academy" program to train neighbors in arresting us (immigrants) in chicago and we knew it weeks before the press did cz there are lawyers as well as janitors in the chats. you wouldn't have a chance to infiltrate something like that without this "blind" network. Jul 14 19:26:40 Camille so maybe it would be interesting useful to put some examples of mutual aid - beyond the excellent examples from niccolo Jul 14 19:26:49 Ruth Further to Camille's point - let's try to use as little jargon as possible Jul 14 19:26:49 niccolo @lauren i can speak for chicago, I am not sure they have the same going on in Brooklyn for instance Jul 14 19:27:03 Chelsea Is there a curator? so many questions get ignored Jul 14 19:27:19 niccolo but it clicks where it needs and keeps information away from unwanted lurkers (e.g. white priders interceoting chats and coming to town with baseball bats) Jul 14 19:27:32 Camille yes there is a curators - @ruth Jul 14 19:27:37 Lauren @niccolo - how do you keep those folks out? Jul 14 19:28:00 Cecilia i think there are many different practices and ways of being that might not be 'called' mutual aid, but in fact are.... Jul 14 19:28:16 * acp_studio has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 19:28:47 niccolo @lauren you kind of know the audience of each social network, like you would never post info on facebook for instance. and then the Signal chats add people manually so you kind of feel safe. Jul 14 19:29:00 Ruth Hi @chelsea Jul 14 19:29:15 niccolo @lauren some info gets boosted on twitter or insta, but it's like 5% of the info you find on Signal. Jul 14 19:29:21 UP_Projects If you have just joined: Welcome to "Mutual Aid in the time of Uncertainty" hosted as part of Common Bond Society by Larisa Blazic and commissioned by UP Projects. Tonight’s agenda items: 1. Now: Mutual aid in the age of uncertainty 2. Next: Mutual aid beyond moments of crisis We are discussing the role mutual aid has played in the context of the current Covid-19 pandemic and considering how we can harness mutual aid tactics t Jul 14 19:29:28 Ruth Thanks for noticing unanswered questions. The conversation is so lively that I fear some questions may have been lost Jul 14 19:29:31 Lauren gotcha - making use of the echo chamber effect for good! Jul 14 19:29:47 Ruth Please can people repost any important questions that have gone unanswered Jul 14 19:30:18 Chelsea @ruth its fine, its still very good Jul 14 19:30:21 PJ Don't you think mutual aid has a lot to do with access and having the privilege and know how to access it ? Doesn't it have to do with education and understanding of these themes? And with that can it be that often having that education means we come from a place of privilege? Jul 14 19:30:35 niccolo @lauren yes, that and "protocolling" is key and I'm loving it (expect getting 500 notifications at night, next time i forget my phone off silent i'll be single again i fear) Jul 14 19:30:40 Anastasia @Niccolo this is a very interesting case study of decentralised organising but... it's worth noting the power of administrators of Signal and Whatsapp groups. If there is no rotation they end up becoming unofficial leaders Jul 14 19:30:54 niccolo there is rotation absolutely Jul 14 19:31:04 niccolo totally Anastaia, that's key Jul 14 19:31:12 Ruth Also thanks for posting the agenda Upprojects Jul 14 19:31:34 Lauren @niccolo - what's 'protocolling'? Jul 14 19:31:34 * iannes (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined Jul 14 19:31:40 Ruth Perhaps it would be nice for people to think about what we can take from past and existing mutual aid practices... Jul 14 19:31:42 Camille @PJ i think the notion of privilege and access are key to the concept of charity - but that mutual aid is precisely working to undo those power relations. Jul 14 19:32:09 niccolo @lauren the way i call this "breaking down of tasks into packets" like the TCP/IP internet protocol that brings us all together here now Jul 14 19:32:10 Ruth and think about what we need to take forward immediately Jul 14 19:32:14 Ruth and into the future Jul 14 19:32:16 Anastasia @PJ very good question. Yes I agree. This is what I was implying in a previous point about people's mistrust of mutual aid groups - they don't know what they are or what they stand for and prefer not to get involved bur rely on other networks of care (families etc.) Jul 14 19:32:24 Lauren I think PJ makes a good point that mutual aid may intend to undo those relations but it's not as accessible as some like to think Jul 14 19:32:24 PJ Mutual aid in itself is a term that won't be very accessible to people though. Jul 14 19:32:34 Cecilia agree PJ Jul 14 19:32:54 PJ Even mutual aid groups, if you don't have the education or the access then it will be hard to organise yourself Jul 14 19:33:02 Cecilia there are probably loads of activities, practices that one *could* call mutual aid, but those participamts might not call it so!! Jul 14 19:33:02 Lauren @niccolo - got it, thx! Jul 14 19:33:04 niccolo @ruth my partisan gandmother used to tell me how they did information and aid relays back then Jul 14 19:33:21 Camille but i dont think we would call everything that is mutual aid "mutual aid" --- we might call it a food pantry / or a housing board etc Jul 14 19:33:27 Harry_ Thats what I think Cecilia - people will be practicing mutual aid without knowing it Jul 14 19:33:32 Anastasia @PJ and @Cecilia absolutely true Jul 14 19:33:36 PJ in many ways I find the term quite isolating and i wonder if there are ways of organising that is more inclusive to people Jul 14 19:33:42 Chelsea @PJ very true Jul 14 19:33:47 Harry_ Interesting Camille what is the definition then Jul 14 19:33:53 Lauren there are lots of groups that have found other names Jul 14 19:33:57 Ruth @niccolo what is it particularly about the aid information relays that we can carry forward Jul 14 19:33:58 Lauren for that reason Jul 14 19:34:03 PJ what structures would we need to make it more accessible, how can we organise in ways that makes it more open? Jul 14 19:34:06 Ruth censorship resistance? Jul 14 19:34:20 Cecilia @PJ @Chelsea, especially now since the term 'sharing' has been contaminated :-0 Jul 14 19:34:26 Lauren @PJ - I think the fact so much of it has unfolded online is a significant barrier Jul 14 19:34:42 Anastasia @PJ on the one hand, I agree, on the other, I'm not sure I'd like us to use a different term without the anarchist connotations of mutual aid... But perhaps I'm being too conservative! Jul 14 19:34:57 Camille i live in a conservative tory area rural area of england... Jul 14 19:34:59 PJ 100% but in a time post corona, how else can we organise? Jul 14 19:35:09 PJ I would be interested to hear your thoughts? Jul 14 19:35:14 niccolo @ruth when she carried a message, she always had only half of a piece of a note that someone else gave her. so she couldn't possibly hijack it and if she was caught she could fake it and she wouldn't know too much. Jul 14 19:35:27 Cecilia notices in our shared buildings and spaces :-) Jul 14 19:35:28 * jesfernie has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 19:35:29 niccolo @ruth the person she'd meet would have the other matching ripped half Jul 14 19:35:36 niccolo and then they'd disapprear Jul 14 19:35:38 Chelsea why would mutual aid have an anarchy connotation - that is quite the opposite from what it should be Jul 14 19:36:11 Anastasia @niccolo, this is fascinating. There are so many accounts of the use of digital media for organising, but much less about the use of media in past for internal organising purposes (speaking as an academic research this now) Jul 14 19:36:24 Ruth So we have a surveillance-proof communication network Jul 14 19:36:31 Cecilia YES!! Jul 14 19:36:51 niccolo @anastasia if that is what you research I have a trove of these things, passed on down by my old folks who ended up (or almost did) in concentration camp Jul 14 19:36:53 Cecilia which in itself is a currency! Jul 14 19:37:11 Cecilia sorry... i meant @ ruth :-0 Jul 14 19:37:38 Cecilia (tmany messages crossing over) #irclife Jul 14 19:37:49 Camille @chelsea i think the notion of anarchy / anarchist organising here is referring to building power outside of the state / self-organisation of the working class etc Jul 14 19:37:52 Ruth But still the question is whether Mutual Aid as a concept contains in its bones a sense of resistance against oppression Jul 14 19:38:18 Ruth that carries widely Jul 14 19:38:23 Anastasia @PJ we've been struggling with this in our mutual aid group. The most recent development is to do some outreach with local organisations, such as Tenant/residents associations and perhaps to go door-to-door and ask people what they are involved in and how they are addressing the needs of our community (i.e. trying to go outside the bubble of our group but not from a position of power, 'we're here to help you' mentality) Jul 14 19:38:30 Lauren @ruth - yes, that's key. I think the answer is yes, and yet we need to be attentive to where those bones can be layered with oppressive flesh Jul 14 19:38:37 Chelsea well I think you need to look dee into the term anarchy in history before using it...this is not a fad Jul 14 19:38:39 Emma_ How does mutual aid manifest when we are not fighting for survival? Jul 14 19:38:47 iannes @ruth It does but there is a danger that the current wave of 'mutual aid' (largely organised by white middle classes) overshadows, even colonizes, a much longer history of mutual aid-type activity, that was never called 'mutual aid' within black and working class communities. Jul 14 19:39:15 Chelsea I am with @Emma and think we should move to her topic Jul 14 19:39:18 elisabeth_ @emma good question. Jul 14 19:39:19 Cecilia @iannes yes! Jul 14 19:39:20 Lauren @Anastasia - that kind of shoe-leather work is key, and hard to motivate people to do... Jul 14 19:39:38 Ruth @iannes I would like to hear what @camille things Jul 14 19:39:46 Harry_ @Emma_ agreed that is what is interesting Jul 14 19:39:52 Camille @emma i think many communities would say that they are pretty much constantly fighting for survival Jul 14 19:39:53 Anastasia @Lauren yes and it is frightening, because it truly means stepping out of your bubble Jul 14 19:40:13 Ruth Yes @Camille Jul 14 19:40:14 Chelsea Can we go back to @Emma Jul 14 19:40:17 iannes @Camille Eshe Kiama Zuri: "There is a cause for concern when groups claim mutual aid and community support whilst being run and populated by white and middle-class people, landlords, police officers, local councillors and those pushing state agendas – participating in racism, diffusing radical organising and removing and a lack of access for 'undesirable' vulnerable people. When you see a mass movement that only comes into existence Jul 14 19:40:33 Lauren @iannes I'm glad you referenced her Jul 14 19:40:35 PJ @Camilie, do you think that post corona this wave of mutual aid will stay as active as it is now? Jul 14 19:40:36 iannes society start needing support, then there is really something to question." Jul 14 19:40:41 Anastasia @Emma following up on @Camille's point, we could enlarge the meaning of survival and urgency Jul 14 19:40:57 elisabeth_ On the back of @Emma's question about survival of mutual iad groups, there was a comment earlier on in the chat when it was suggested that if people in the community don't know about mutual aid, it means that mutual aid groups are not trusted. Sorry to paraphrase but that was an interesting point worth unpicking Jul 14 19:41:00 Chelsea @Iannes tottally Jul 14 19:41:22 PJ I think trust is super important! Jul 14 19:41:32 Harry_ I think you are right @camille but what the pandemic did was bring about a collective mode of survival Jul 14 19:41:36 Anastasia the climate change movement has recently been more successful in doing exactly that, so we are in survival mode as a species Jul 14 19:41:37 PJ How can we maintain and build trust online in our current context? Jul 14 19:41:45 PJ is that even possible ? Jul 14 19:41:59 Cecilia yes and there are issues about visibility that i would like to pick up - how can it be safe for people to be visible, trust one another IRL? Jul 14 19:42:18 Camille for sure i think there is a hell of lot of organising - going under the name of "mutual aid" that looks more like state management / charity / church work / aid etc. Jul 14 19:42:23 Camille but that is beside the point Jul 14 19:42:28 Ruth @elisabeth_ you make a good point - to talk about the use of the idea of "mutual aid" is not just a theoretical stick - it is about what we can do with it because of how people understand it and can therefore use it Jul 14 19:42:41 Anastasia @PJ I think that common work is crucial when it comes to building trust online - the experience of working with each other addresses some of the issues of online trust-building Jul 14 19:42:52 Lauren @Cecilia that's a good question - there's something about all this online communication that makes stereotyping much less of an issue Jul 14 19:42:58 Camille in that there is much organising that claims to be feminist that is anything but - as another example Jul 14 19:43:32 Lauren @Camille - where I am the council are trying to 'support' mutual aid Jul 14 19:43:37 sprprtr Anastasia +1 Jul 14 19:43:39 Cecilia @Lauren @Camille agree with you both. its complex though, there are different types of access IRL/online Jul 14 19:43:47 Lauren I am worried its a co-option Jul 14 19:43:48 * jk (email@example.com) has joined Jul 14 19:43:55 Camille @lauren yes i have heard a lot of instances of that -- Jul 14 19:43:56 PJ I also think the online involvement has shown us a lot about confidence. There is something easier and more accessible about accessing mutual aid online. I think often especially when we are working on an approach that is non-hierarchical how do people gain that confidence to offer help but also to receive it? Jul 14 19:44:07 Camille also the demand that people have police checks etc Jul 14 19:44:37 elisabeth_ @PJ good point, personally I would love to learn more about that as well as ideas of visibility and trust. Jul 14 19:44:51 Ruth Can we talk more about the problems of co-optation @camille Jul 14 19:44:52 Chelsea @PJ very true that although in other cultures this is not the case it might be a Western World problem Jul 14 19:45:06 WonderWhy72 I think the issue of time is also key - people are weary of committing for a long period of time, or with no "end of contract" in sight Jul 14 19:45:19 Camille i think the point about the current context is that Covid-19 is a test run for what is coming in terms of the ecological crisis - so yes cooption is very much something we need to think abotu Jul 14 19:45:21 PJ @chelsea in what way? interested to hear your thoughts? Jul 14 19:45:33 Chelsea In other cultures we share food free from hierarchies and whoever sits down at the table even if we don't have enough Jul 14 19:45:38 Chelsea as an example Jul 14 19:45:50 Anastasia @PJ but the digital divide is still in play, there were people who found it difficult to ask help on Whatsapp for instance. For mutual aid groups operating a standard phoneline was crucial. And at times, we had to help with requests relating to technology Jul 14 19:46:00 Cecilia i think the police checks brings up aagain this super important point - about safety. if mutual aid activity is coopted by institutions then who does it lock out... Jul 14 19:46:02 Lauren @Camille - I have experienced interactions where it appears the council expects mutual aid to fill holes left by austerity Jul 14 19:46:12 iannes Alan Lane of Slung Low in Leeds has written excellently about co-option. Jul 14 19:46:24 Lauren puts me in mind of 'big society'.... how do we avoid that logic?? Jul 14 19:46:41 Cecilia @Lauren @camille i was just about to say that!! Jul 14 19:46:42 Anastasia @Camille @Lauren this is a danger and more of a risk now as local authorities will be losing revenue Jul 14 19:46:44 PJ @good point! is the difference then our systemic structures and do you think mutual aid and it's political act can play a role in changing these Jul 14 19:47:05 Camille yes i think after 10 years of austerity and withdrawal of the state - the question of how we organise ourselves going forward. Jul 14 19:47:12 Ruth Good question @PJ Jul 14 19:47:16 Camille i am thinking here about food banks Jul 14 19:47:17 Ruth gets to the heart Jul 14 19:47:17 WonderWhy72 From a long time perspective - the role of the state in providing aid is only very recent. As human beings we have it in our genes to support each other for survival. Jul 14 19:47:42 iannes https://alanlaneblog.wordpress.com/2020/05/28/ blogpost-10-weeks-of-social-care-referrals-and- keeping-promises/ Jul 14 19:47:50 Ruth Thanks @iannes! Jul 14 19:47:52 Chelsea @PJ its a cultural issue a name alone won't change the game it will be a long process of relearning trust Jul 14 19:48:12 Lauren There's a decent amount of funding flowing to mutual aid - I can't work out if that is positive redistribution or co-option Jul 14 19:48:24 Anastasia @Lauren me neither... Jul 14 19:48:31 Cecilia @Chelsea yes which is difficult as covid has been a time of even more heightened fear Jul 14 19:48:33 Lauren Probably a bit of both!? Jul 14 19:48:36 Anastasia both things could be true though! Jul 14 19:49:12 Cecilia @Lauren @Anastasia yes agree, and that's where political aspect of mutual aid remains important Jul 14 19:49:13 Ruth I'm still not sure we have answered the question about whether... Jul 14 19:49:14 Anastasia in terms of trust, working within the locality and with immediate neighbours seems to lessen the fear about one's safety Jul 14 19:49:26 Lauren @Cecilia - so how to define / maintain that politics? Jul 14 19:49:32 Ruth mutual aid practices can inform the way we interact moving forward? Jul 14 19:49:41 Lauren esp when they might not align with the politics of all participants in the group Jul 14 19:49:56 Ruth Good question @lauren Jul 14 19:50:01 PJ @ruth exactly that! Jul 14 19:50:06 Emma_ @ruth thanks - yes this would be interesting to discuss Jul 14 19:50:08 Anastasia and this is another interesting tension/dynamic between mutual aid and state - the scale. Mutual aid operates as a hyperlocal network with interconnected localities Jul 14 19:50:17 Chelsea again mutual aid should be unconditional of all politics religious beliefs or what not Jul 14 19:50:45 Chelsea it should and can not ever stand AGAINST anything otherwise it would not be an aid Jul 14 19:50:46 Camille i dont agree with that at all: i dont want to work with fascists for example Jul 14 19:50:47 Harry_ I would love to hear more from the panellists about how we can move forward - how can the spirit of mutual aid remain post Covid Jul 14 19:50:48 Cecilia do you think that circling back to the 'care' helps us think about this? i've been really interested in care as a political act Jul 14 19:51:32 Chelsea Yes Harry me to Jul 14 19:51:42 WonderWhy72 me too Jul 14 19:51:45 iannes me too Jul 14 19:51:58 Emma_ yes please Jul 14 19:52:03 Ruth We have 10 minutes left - and it would be great to hear from the panel now about what the future of mutual aid might be harnessed Jul 14 19:52:10 PJ Me too, how can we move forward into tomorrow? Jul 14 19:52:46 Cecilia for me (as someone who ahem didn't participate in mutual aid group during covid), i'm on the long tail... Jul 14 19:52:47 Camille moving forward for me means bringing into the frame ecological crises that will and are already producing the need for mutual aid/ the pandemic has been a case study. but not all crisis will take the same shape. Jul 14 19:52:47 Ruth and how might we create organisational systems to aid the way we live and interact in the future? Jul 14 19:53:34 Lauren @Ruth - do you mean organisational or organising systems? Jul 14 19:53:35 Camille i think mutual aid is most powerful and useful when it is located in place / and that we need to develop ways of overcoming the alienation of online organising Jul 14 19:53:51 Ruth Both @Lauren Jul 14 19:53:56 Ruth Systems of organising Jul 14 19:54:07 Ruth and organisational infrastructures Jul 14 19:54:15 Cecilia this moment (BLM, covid, environmenal crisis) has helped to resurface new energy in organising as an activity Jul 14 19:54:30 PJ @Camille how do you think that could manifest if people can't meet in person though? Jul 14 19:54:51 Anastasia one concrete way of moving forward is to use the mutual aid networks that have been created to focus on broader issues of survival in the community - the coronavirus crisis will be followed by a deep economic crisis and issues of housing, unemployment etc. We also need to focus on survival in terms of the ecological crises. And finally, we can always reflect and correct/develop the networks that we have already created to address their Jul 14 19:55:21 Camille ^ agree - we have to be prepared and interested in making mistakes. fail again fail better Jul 14 19:55:28 niccolo on my end I can only suggest to try organising the way BLM or COVID support networks are organised here: it's very smooth and takcles many of the issues you've raised today Jul 14 19:55:32 Cecilia within my part of the cultural/arts sector, there is a renewed desire to come together, put forward calls for action and support one another collectively Jul 14 19:55:37 elisabeth_ great point @Anastasia Jul 14 19:55:49 Ruth Agreed @Cecilia Jul 14 19:56:18 Lauren Agreed @Cecilia - collectivity as an antidote to institutional power Jul 14 19:56:29 iannes @Camille this is XR thinking, not everyone can afford to be interested in making mistakes Jul 14 19:56:30 Ruth Its time to wrap up :( Jul 14 19:56:36 Ruth I would like to thank you all for your participation, co-operation and ideas this evening! For those of you who know people who were unable to attend the event today, this conversation has been recorded and archived and will be available to view from the end of this week within this IRC chat room. Jul 14 19:56:41 Cecilia .... this is especially so for communities of colour, disabled folk, LGBTQI+ folk, working class folk... even when there might not be enough spoons!! Jul 14 19:56:47 Camille everyone makes mistakes Jul 14 19:56:53 PJ @iannes ^agreed Jul 14 19:56:53 Camille thinking that you dont is dangerous Jul 14 19:57:08 Ruth I encourage you all now to explore Common Bond Society further. Take a look at the other chat rooms available to you, use these IRC rooms to facilitate conversations you may wish to be having that may not be possible IRL at the moment, read the resources available and…my personal favourite... Jul 14 19:57:28 Chelsea @ruth and @up project thank you for the great experience Jul 14 19:57:31 Ruth Interact with the Kropotkin bot in the chat room Mutual aid, it’s a political practice. Type in specific words to discover key quotes from Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution and learn more about the origins of mutual aid. There will also be a second event associated with Common Bond Society on 18 August that will take place in the In this place of safety chatroom that will facilitate a conversation around notions of safety with in the digi Jul 14 19:57:57 * niccolo_ (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined Jul 14 19:58:03 niccolo_ ouch my connection froze sorry Jul 14 19:58:07 Ruth I would like to thank our participants this evening: Larisa Blazic Camille Barbagallo Anastasia Kavada Cecilia Wee Jul 14 19:58:18 Cecilia *clap emoji Jul 14 19:58:31 Ruth And all of the amazing participants who joined to make this such a lively and wide ranging discussion Jul 14 19:58:32 niccolo_ bravi!!!! Jul 14 19:58:40 Cecilia thanks @Ruth @lara @UPProjects Jul 14 19:58:43 iannes Will the transcript be available? Jul 14 19:58:46 Ruth And thank you to UP Projects for commissioning this artwork and convening the event tonight. I hope these discussions can and will continue. Thank you! And good night! Jul 14 19:58:47 niccolo_ clap! clap! Jul 14 19:58:48 sprprtr I had a blast - thank you Ruth, Anastasia Camille and Ceilia - thank you all Jul 14 19:58:50 Emma_ Thank you to you @Ruth and all the panelists! Jul 14 19:58:51 sprprtr yes! Jul 14 19:58:52 Anastasia thank you @Ruth for chairing @Up_projects and Lara for organising and to all of you for such thought-provoking questions and comments. Jul 14 19:58:57 iannes Thank you! Jul 14 19:59:01 Camille cheers Jul 14 19:59:02 cristina Thank you all, great discussion! Jul 14 19:59:08 ssd Thank you; lots to read up on from today Jul 14 19:59:13 UP_Projects Thank you @Ruth Jul 14 19:59:14 niccolo_ amazing yes! Jul 14 19:59:16 sprprtr i will keep the log and upload it to the archive page in the bnext few days Jul 14 19:59:17 m---b thanks so much ! Jul 14 19:59:17 niccolo_ thanks ruth Jul 14 19:59:18 Ruth Everyone can of course stick around to keep chatting Jul 14 19:59:20 Lauren thanks alllllll Jul 14 19:59:28 Lauren brilliant stuff Jul 14 19:59:29 * niccolo has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 19:59:32 Lauren Well done LARA! Jul 14 19:59:32 Cecilia phew! managed to type :-) Jul 14 19:59:41 sprprtr :-) Jul 14 19:59:45 Anastasia :-) Jul 14 19:59:45 Ruth Lara before we all head off.... Jul 14 19:59:51 * debhack28 has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 19:59:51 sprprtr Yes Jul 14 19:59:53 sprprtr ? Jul 14 19:59:57 Ruth please can you tell us about the film in the background? Jul 14 19:59:59 elisabeth_ Thank you all! Jul 14 19:59:59 Cecilia thanks for the good conversation all!! Jul 14 20:00:09 sprprtr aaahh, the film in the background Jul 14 20:00:17 niccolo_ aaah Coronet films :) Jul 14 20:00:22 sprprtr found it on archive.org Jul 14 20:00:25 niccolo_ they were made her ein chciago Jul 14 20:00:29 niccolo_ here Jul 14 20:00:37 Ruth ah amazing @niccolo Jul 14 20:00:38 * irini has quit ("Page closed") Jul 14 20:00:40 niccolo_ god bless the internet archive Jul 14 20:00:45 Ruth amen! Jul 14 20:00:50 sprprtr it is an instructional film on how to learn cooperation Jul 14 20:00:51 Cecilia yay for chicago!! Jul 14 20:00:58 niccolo_ you should watch the "dating do's and don't s one too" Jul 14 20:01:04 niccolo_ it's wacko Jul 14 20:01:20 sprprtr Thank you all! Take care! Jul 14 20:01:40 niccolo_ @sprprtr thank you for using their films, i was so moved when i first cam eto this work Jul 14 20:01:46 niccolo_ i like gasped lol Jul 14 20:02:00 Anastasia and I have to say, I have new appreciation of IRC chat now :-) Jul 14 20:02:17 niccolo_ this and IRC got me sold on the first second lol Jul 14 20:02:29 niccolo_ we really need tools that minimize distraction like these Jul 14 20:02:30 Cecilia haven't done IRC since 1998 LOL Jul 14 20:02:34 Ruth : D Jul 14 20:02:42 * Uk has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:03:30 * Chelsea has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:03:48 * WonderWhy72 has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:04:00 niccolo_ ciao ciao from Chi-town! Jul 14 20:04:17 * iannes has quit ("Page closed") Jul 14 20:04:39 * SamKaro has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:05:02 Camille night everyone Jul 14 20:05:09 * Truce_ has quit ("Page closed") Jul 14 20:05:14 UP_Projects Thank you to everyone for coming! Jul 14 20:05:15 sprprtr night Camille Jul 14 20:05:16 * ssd has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:05:20 Ruth good night! Jul 14 20:05:23 Cecilia night all! Jul 14 20:05:26 Anastasia bye all! Jul 14 20:05:28 * RecorderBot has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:05:30 niccolo_ good night! Jul 14 20:05:30 Ruth xxx Jul 14 20:05:35 * gc has quit ("Page closed") Jul 14 20:05:50 * niccolo_ has quit ("Page closed") Jul 14 20:06:04 * m---b has quit ("Page closed") Jul 14 20:06:15 * MMont has quit ("Page closed") Jul 14 20:06:18 * jk has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:06:40 sprprtr xxx Jul 14 20:07:00 * breakwater has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:07:37 * Lauren has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:07:54 * rosie has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:08:05 * elisabeth_ has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:08:59 * Harry_ has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:09:19 * lararara has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:09:25 * Cecilia has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:09:28 * Anastasia has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:11:04 * Camille has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:11:32 * Ruth has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:11:35 * saramairi has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:15:02 * niccolo (email@example.com) has joined Jul 14 20:17:22 * UP_Projects has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:20:35 * lkjlkj (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined Jul 14 20:23:16 * cristina has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:24:37 * lkjlkj has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:33:10 * niccolo has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:35:22 * jd (email@example.com) has joined Jul 14 20:39:32 * Bergit_ has quit ("Page closed") Jul 14 20:40:14 ahadzi nighty night Jul 14 20:49:19 * Emma_ has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:55:36 * jd has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 14 20:59:10 * PJ has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 15 00:52:03 * LiliMaxx_ has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 15 07:39:33 * Disconnected () **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Jul 15 07:39:33 2020
For more information about the project please click here.
Kropotkin botkin using RealTime Configurable IRC ChatBot by Logan Lee.
All Kropotkin botkin quotes from 'Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution', retrieved from Project Gutenberg.
Mutual Aid, it's political practice IRC chat modified Kiwi IRC by
Dennis de Bel and hosted by Varia.
Solidarity not charity page uses an embebed IRC webchat qwebirc.
In this place of safety page uses an embeded IRC webchat CGI:IRC.
How To Get Cooperation,video found on Archive.org.
Special thanks to
Varia Centre for Everyday Technology for their help with Kiwi IRC webclient
Elisabeth Del Prete
All work released under copyleft licenses
that mirror the licenses used in various
parts of this website.
The opinions expressed in these messages
are the participants own and do not reflect
the views of Larisa Blazic, UP Projects,
or Arts Council England. Because community
standards vary and individuals sometimes
may upload content considered
inappropriate, you may be exposed to content
that you find offensive or objectionable.
Audiences are encouraged to bring any material
they deem offensive or objectionable to the
attention of UP Projects by emailing us at
firstname.lastname@example.org identifying the specific
material they considered objectionable.
Common Bond Society by Larisa Blazic was commisioned by UP Projects for This is Public Space.